Mirror-Spectator On- Line
June 13, 2002
BOSTON ‘ Patriarch MM Mutafyan visited the Boston area, to participate in the
events organized by the Sour Khach Tibrevank Alumni Association in Danvers,
north of Boston.
The following interview was conducted by the Mirror staff with the patriarch,
who touched upon a range of subjects.
The patriarch was more forthcoming than usual, commenting about the
restrictions on Armenians in Turkey, while suggesting that the Armenian
Church needed to fight to reclaim many parishioners not only in Turkey, but
around the world, as church attendance dropped due to long services and the
exclusive use of classical Armenian.
What is purpose of your visit to Boston?
MM: About 16 years ago, the Alumni of the Sourp Khach Tibrevank formed an
alumni association, which once a year organizes a meeting of alumni in the
US. In Istanbul, we just celebrated the 49th anniversary of the Sourp Khach
Tibrevank. I’ll be seeing in New York Patriarch Torkom and Ter Partogh
Kherkadjian who for the past five weeks has been in the hospital, who serves
in Montreal.
( Ter Partogh passed away on May 30) I will be leaving via Washington,
Frankfurt, and back to Istanbul.
What is the state of the Armenian community in Istanbul?
MM: The Armenian Community mainly in Istanbul, according to the state
Statistics Bureau, is about 81,000, but I think the real number is about
65,000. They count those Armenians who are living either on a temporary basis
in Benelux and Germany.
In the city, most of our community foundations are well, and we have no
problems running them, except lack of financial resources, because all of
those institutions were built at one time for a community of 150,000. Now
about 65,000 people have to take care of them. We have an abundance of
schools, which we don’t need. We would do well with maybe 8-10 schools, but
now we have 18. We don’t need 38 churches. At this time, 24 churches function
every Sunday. The rest of the churches are open during the week by visiting
priests. We have a surplus of churches and institutions and it is more and
more difficult to run these things because of financial reasons.
Most of our people since the 1970s have immigrated out of Turkey to
Australia, Europe or the United States. This will be a major problem in the
future. For example, the renovation of the Patriarchate is going very slowly
because of financial problems. It is a $2 million project. Already, $1.2
million was raised in the States, $600,000 in the community, then it was
matched by the Lincy Foundation, but we need another $800,000. We’re hoping
that will be collected within Turkey.
We hope to reopen the Patriarchate by Easter 2003, but it’s going slow. The
problem, again, is finances. There is an economic crisis in Turkey now;
especially it is emphasized after September 11. A lot of young people,
especially those who are very well educated are trying to find jobs in the
West. People are leaving, but usually they are people with brains, who can
find work in the West, in good companies, whereas lower middle class type
people who try to leave usually come back because they cannot find jobs in
the west.
Does the government help the schools financially?
MM: The government does not help any school that isn’t state run. There are
German, French, Armenian, Greek, Turkish schools that don’t receive any
subsidies from the government.
Are the principals Turkish appointed?
MM: Any school that isn’t Turkish has two principals, like in the English
high school, there is a Turkish principal and an English principal. It is the
same in the Jewish and the Armenian high schools. In the case of the Jewish,
Armenian and Greek schools, our community sometimes reacts, saying it’s
alright if you put Turkish headmasters for European schools, but since these
are minorities who have Turkish citizenship, that arrangement means the state
doesn’t recognize the full citizenship of the minorities. This is sometimes a
concern.
Are these principals paid through the government?
MM: Yes, the government pays for them. The Armenian parish schools pay only
for the Armenian teachers. All Turkish teachers are paid by the Turkish
government. All the sciences are taught in Armenian. Only civics, history,
and Turkish language are taught in Turkish. Anything else we are allowed to
teach in Armenian.
What was the outcome of your contacts in Ankara recently to resolve problems
imposed on the Armenian community by the government? Please discuss the
discriminatory laws applied to non-Moslem charities and the issue of ID cards
where sometimes Armenians are refered to as “other Christian.”
MM: In Turkey, there are different numbers assigned per person for different
reasons. An ID card would have a different number; a social security card
would have a different number. It is not like America that you have a social
security number and it all is connected to that. Right now, Turkey has just
created a number like that for all citizens. They call it an ID number and
they’re restructuring the system and they are reissuing ID cards. When they
do this, they don’t know that Christians have four major denominations,
Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, and this way they
mingle things. They wouldn’t know whether a person is Catholic or Orthodox,
so this way they sometimes say “other Christian,” which are Chaldians,
Nestorians, etc.
We had to react to that, because if the person’s ID wrote “other Christian,”
that would mean that they would not be covered by the Lausanne Treaty, which
means the children of those people could not attend Armenian Schools, so they
would have to forfeit their special minority rights. That is why the
Patriarchate asked people to be careful when they change their ID cards, and
I wrote a letter to the Department of Registration to correct the
discrepancy. They said they would do their best. I know after our suggestion
to people, many people went back and corrected their ID.
We went to Ankara recently because we asked the government to reconsider its
stance on non-Moslem charities. Moslem and non-Moslem charities do not enjoy
equal opportunity. Moslem charities can receive not only money, but also real
estate and they can sell them whenever they want. But, Armenian, Greek and
Jewish charities can only keep the real estate that we had until 1936.
Anything which is given after 1936 to 1970s are one by one confiscated by the
government, either back to the previous owner, or if the owner has passed
away, confiscated for the state treasury. This we think is not in line with
the citizenship rights of the Armenians in Turkey, and not a democratic way
of governing.
How many apartments were taken?
MM: I think over 40, either pieces of land or buildings. I know the Greek
community has had over 150. This is something we will follow up, naturally.
Apart from these, there are a few inequalities. For example, minorities
cannot attain certain positions in Turkey, regardless of whether they want it
or not. For example, a (non-Moslem) person cannot become a general in the
Army or police chief. The system should allow all citizens to have equal
opportunity in Turkey.
You proposed erecting a monument to victims (both Turkish and Armenian) on
the Turkish-Armenian border. What would the purpose of that be?
MM: it is not a new proposal. It is something that one of the Turkish writers
proposed. I believe that regardless of what we call it, whether Genocide, or
massacre, or deportations or civil war, whatever we call it, that’s a
political statement. As a religious person, what I am concerned with is the
culture of hatred, which is being instilled in both sides. There is a problem
and that has to be solved this way or that way. The way to the future must be
opened for both the young Armenian generation and the young Turkish
generation. Turkey and Armenia, by divine will, have been put together as
neighbors. That is not going to change. Either these two peoples will be
eternally enemies, or they will be neighbors who will develop their relations
and benefit from the development of these relations. As a teacher or morality
and religion, what I am concerned about is the hatred. There must be venues
for both peoples to experience forgiveness toward each other. It is my duty
to remind people that without forgiveness, there is no peace. I would wish
that any Turkish person also respects Armenian martyrs and any Armenian
person respect any Turkish person who is dead either in 1915 or in another
incident. That is the moral statement that I am making.
What was the reaction of the Turkish religious or cultural factions with
regard to this suggestion?
MM: I think it was positive. I think there are many Turkish religious persons
or intellectuals who would also like it. They would like once and for all to
solve this issue, because life must go on. Neither Armenia nor Turkey is
benefiting from this. People feel this issue may be used politically, but in
the final analysis, it isn’t benefiting (anyone). And the more it continues,
the hatred will be deeper. It is not going to help us.
The Turkish-Armenian community, we are vulnerable because we are people in th
e middle of two fires. We are also people with their own identity, who have
a place for both cultures. We live in Turkey. How can you say an
American-Armenian doesn’t feel American? The same way an Armenian in Turkey,
who was born there, has an appreciation of Turkish culture, literature,
music, but that person also feels Armenian. We have identification with both
cultures, so it’s like loving two people at the same time and at the same
time suffering because the people that you love, together, they distrust you.
In Armenia and the diaspora, Turkish Armenians, because they continue living
in Turkey, are considered Turkophiles, and not so Armenian, and in Turkey,
because they are Armenian and they try to perpetrate their culture, identity
and ethnic feelings, they are mistrusted by the Turks, because they’re not so
trustworthy.
This is something every Turkish Armenian feels.
Why did you and Patriarch Torkom not attend the Armenia-Diaspora Conference?
MM: Torkom Patriarch is here for a medical checkup. In our case, we had a
mixed meeting of our religious council and our advisory council, and we
decided that this is not a religious convention, plus Vehapar is being there
as the number one hierarch of the church, so we decided our community will
send five people to the Diaspora Conference. I know nearly 20 people are
going from Istanbul, five of them official participants from the Patriarchate.
I don’t think my presence was important there. The Catholicos will be there,
and that is why we send our good wishes and representatives. I will be there
in late July.
What are your relations with the Mother See?
MM: Our policy in Istanbul is to keep our Patriarchate authority, recognizing
the spiritual matters, which pertains to the Armenian Church, the leadership
of the Mother See of Echmiadzin. We have good relations with the
Catholicosate of Cilicia, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and in every
Patriarchate liturgy, I pray for all of the four hierarchical sees. I hope we
don’t let politics get involved with the church life.
We say this is a national church, keeper of our heritage, but on the other
hand, church attendance is very low everywhere in the world. In Aleppo or
Istanbul, very traditional places, we see only about 5 percent, 10 percent
attend church, and of course this is because the church needs to keep up with
the times. With classical Armenian, long liturgies and all our attention
focused on keeping the traditions, which can be irrelevant to the everyday
life of children, young people, and the problems they are experiencing. It is
my prayer that the two catholicoi and the two patriarchs and all the bishops
will somehow get together and in the very near future start concerning
themselves with certain reforms in the Armenian church, without of course
touching its theology and identity within the community.
Do you think non-Armenian liturgy is essential?
MM: The Vatican did it. We have to make certain concessions to the local
language. We have in Istanbul certain parishes where people don’t speak
Armenian. They speak dialects, but not the Armenian we use in church. What we
do for the time being, we use classical Armenian, but in the sermon speak an
Armenian which is as simple as possible, and read the books of the Epistles
and the Gospels portions in modern Armenian, and sometimes in Turkish,
depending on what province we’re in. What do you do in Caeseria or Sivas,
what do you do? They speak a dialect of their own which we cannot speak. We
use Turkish.
In Turkey there is a thriving Protestant church. Many Turkish people, and
Armenian young people, who don’t find enough pastoral attention and enough
teaching that they understand, because it is Armenian, they prefer going to
these other missions. Either we allow them to do that, or we provide the
teaching ourselves in the way they understand.
We cannot tell them first be Armenian and then you can be saved. It is a
dilemma that the church faces, because the Armenian Church has two missions:
one is the universal mission, preaching the gospel. The second mission is to
preserve the Armenian traditions, its input into world Christendom. We are
the depositors of that tradition. One must not hinder the other. If we become
an ethnic club and a club of things Armenian only, then maybe we won’t be
able to preach the gospels.
We hope during the next bishop’s conclave, we will maybe form a commission to
study the issue. We cannot do this haphazardly.
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